Robert and James

Overview

The conversation is principally about Robert Frederick’s theory that Francis Bacon:

• participated in, or was responsible for, works attributed to William Shakespeare;
• helped develop modern Freemasonry;
• used literature, secret societies and early scientific thinking as instruments of political and psychological influence;
• played a foundational role in creating the intellectual structures of the British Empire and modern ‘scientism’.

The interview also explores Frederick’s esoteric readings of Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, The Tempest and A Midsummer Night’s Dream. Delingpole is highly receptive to these theories and frequently connects them to his own beliefs about propaganda, occult elites and contemporary institutions.

Significant points from the interview

1. The Shakespeare authorship discussion

The conversation begins with the death of Delingpole’s friend Alexander Waugh and the Shakespeare authorship question.

Delingpole characterises Waugh’s position as follows:

• Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford, headed a court-sponsored ‘scriptorium’;
• the group produced works serving Elizabethan state interests;
• Oxford was the central figure, but other writers may have participated;
• Waugh was open to Francis Bacon having some involvement.

Frederick advocates a Bacon-centred interpretation. He argues that Shakespeare’s works display:

• elite knowledge;
• courtly and political experience;
• intelligence-gathering techniques;
• coded or concealed meanings;
• Masonic and occult symbolism;
• Tudor propaganda.

Neither participant systematically presents the mainstream attribution to William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon or tests the alternative theories against it.

2. The claim that Bacon was Elizabeth I’s son

Frederick presents the theory that Francis Bacon was the illegitimate son of Elizabeth I and Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester.

His stated case includes:

• Elizabeth and Dudley had known each other from childhood;
• both were imprisoned in the Tower of London;
• Frederick says it is thought that they had an affair there;
• Dudley later became Elizabeth’s Master of the Horse;
• their apartments were allegedly close to one another;
• diplomats reported rumours concerning their relationship, a pregnancy and a child;
• Anne Bacon, whom Frederick calls Francis Bacon’s foster mother under this theory, was attached to the royal court;
• Francis allegedly did not receive the inheritance expected from Nicholas Bacon;
• Frederick interprets Bacon’s loyalty, ambition and imperial outlook as circumstantial support.

Frederick repeatedly acknowledges that much of this is circumstantial. The transcript does not provide documentary citations, quotations from the alleged diplomatic correspondence or a detailed chronology. Delingpole nevertheless says that he is persuaded.

3. Bacon’s education and intellectual environment

Both speakers emphasise the exceptional education available to Elizabethan courtiers. They discuss:

• Latin and Greek;
• classical authors;
• theology, poetry and rhetoric;
• Roger Ascham’s role as an educator;
• the education of Elizabeth I;
• Anne and Nicholas Bacon’s learning;
• John Dee’s work in mathematics, navigation, cartography and occult studies.

Frederick portrays Bacon as an extraordinary polymath who combined classical learning, political ambition, intelligence work and an advanced understanding of psychology.

His comparison between Bacon and John Dee is qualified: he regards Bacon as the greater overall intellect but credits Dee with stronger mathematical ability.

4. Tudor rule and propaganda

The speakers describe the Tudor dynasty as brilliant, ruthless and highly manipulative.

Their examples include:

• Henry VII’s financial and political severity;
• Henry VIII’s executions and break with Rome;
• Elizabethan surveillance and intelligence networks;
• Tudor control of historical narratives;
• the portrayal of Richard III as a villain;
• the use of plays to legitimise the dynasty and promote national identity.

They treat Richard III as a leading example of Tudor propaganda. Delingpole and Frederick also recommend The Lost King for its treatment of Richard III’s reputation and the discovery of his remains.

The interview’s broader argument is that theatre helped to:

• create a common national story;
• strengthen loyalty to the Crown;
• encourage military patriotism;
• justify Tudor succession;
• prepare the cultural ground for empire.

5. Shakespeare as a ‘national poet’

Frederick argues that Elizabethan England needed a national poet comparable to those associated with Greece and Rome.

In his account, the Shakespeare project supplied:

1. A national mythology.
2. A shared English identity.
3. Historical narratives favourable to Tudor rule.
4. Psychological and moral instruction through theatre.
5. Cultural support for imperial expansion.

He attributes to Bacon a sophisticated understanding of myth, dreams, performance and collective consciousness. The transcript does not establish that Bacon designed such a programme; this is Frederick’s interpretative framework.

Frederick’s reading of Romeo and Juliet

One of the longest sections concerns Frederick’s contention that Romeo and Juliet is not fundamentally a romantic tragedy. He reads it as a disturbing work about lust, death, manipulation, alchemy and ritual transformation.

Points he highlights

• Romeo initially professes intense love for Rosaline but immediately transfers his affections to Juliet.
• Romeo is repeatedly associated with night and avoidance of sunlight.
• Frederick interprets the gathering of dew as possible alchemical symbolism.
• Juliet is explicitly not yet fourteen.
• Romeo and Juliet progress almost immediately from meeting to discussing marriage and sexual union.
• Sexual language is repeatedly connected with violence and death.
• Mercutio’s speech contains extensive sexual wordplay.
• Juliet’s final reference to Romeo’s dagger carries an obvious sexual double meaning.
• Juliet’s father promises to raise a golden statue of her at the end.
• Frederick interprets the gold imagery as part of an alchemical pattern.

The Nurse

Frederick portrays the Nurse as a troubling facilitator rather than a harmless comic figure. He argues that:

• her recollection of Juliet’s childhood contains sexualised imagery;
• her laughter disguises the sinister implications of her speech;
• she assists Romeo’s access to Juliet;
• she helps arrange the relationship;
• she is notably absent from the final scene.

The transcript does not demonstrate that the Nurse has a consciously malevolent motive. Frederick himself says her motivation is not made explicit.

Friar Laurence

Frederick depicts Friar Laurence as:

• an alchemist and herbalist;
• a manipulator operating behind a religious appearance;
• a figure associated with solar symbolism;
• an adult who improperly facilitates the secret marriage of young people;
• a possible representative of occult or initiatory knowledge.

He interprets references to the sun as potentially Mithraic or Masonic. He also labels the Friar a concealed Satanist, but the transcript provides no direct textual demonstration sufficient to establish that conclusion.

Frederick’s overall interpretation

Frederick suggests that the play may:

• mock romantic love by reducing it to lust;
• show the manipulation of young people by initiated adults;
• transform Juliet into a sacrificial or idealised figure;
• conceal esoteric meanings beneath comedy, beauty and familiar romantic language;
• distinguish an informed elite from an audience unable to perceive the concealed design.

Delingpole compares Juliet to a sacrificial public figure and introduces Princess Diana. Frederick says he had not previously made that connection. This comparison therefore originates with Delingpole, not with Frederick’s original analysis.

Gnosticism, occultism and elite morality

Frederick and Delingpole propose that members of the elite may have followed moral principles different from those imposed on the general population.

The concepts they discuss include:

• Gnosticism;
• antinomianism, or the belief that ordinary moral law does not bind the enlightened;
• sun worship;
• Mithraism;
• alchemy;
• secret initiation;
• ritual transgression;
• the possibility of becoming divine;
• concealed groups operating inside respectable institutions.

They speculate that transgressive acts may:

• bind participants together;
• create shared culpability;
• discourage betrayal;
• provide opportunities for blackmail;
• become psychologically addictive.

The conversation then moves into claims about ritual abuse, demonic possession, Satanic reward, ‘adrenochrome’, Elizabeth Báthory and Gilles de Rais. These claims are discussed speculatively and are not supported by evidence in the transcript. Frederick explicitly qualifies the adrenochrome claim with ‘if it’s real’, while Delingpole presents some supernatural propositions more affirmatively.

Bacon and Freemasonry

Frederick argues that Bacon helped create the modern form of Freemasonry by combining older traditions into a portable, initiatory organisation.

Functions attributed to Freemasonry

Frederick says it offered members:

• fellowship and mutual support;
• moral and intellectual improvement;
• study of the liberal arts;
• ritualised personal transformation;
• secrecy and exclusivity;
• practical networks for merchants, soldiers and professionals;
• a portable institution suitable for imperial expansion.

He links Freemasonry to Roman Mithraism, particularly through:

• male-only membership;
• hierarchical initiation;
• secrecy;
• military participation;
• solar imagery;
• ritual death and rebirth.

Evidence Frederick says he intends to use

Frederick concedes that demonstrating Bacon’s authorship of Freemasonry is an unfinished research task. He points to:

• alleged Masonic symbolism in Shakespeare’s plays;
• checkerboard floors;
• paired columns;
• images of the sun and moon;
• Masonic handshakes;
• symbolism in Baconian title pages and book illustrations;
• earlier writers, including Alfred Dodd, who connected Bacon with Freemasonry;
• perceived parallels between the murder of Banquo in Macbeth and the Masonic story of Hiram Abiff.

These parallels are presented as indications rather than conclusive proof. Frederick says that a future essay will assemble the case.

The ‘outer’ and ‘inner’ organisations

Both speakers distinguish between ordinary Freemasons and a hypothetical inner group.

They agree that:

• many local Freemasons are decent people;
• lodges can perform charitable and social functions;
• most members may know nothing of alleged darker activities;
• an inner organisation might select members willing to transgress moral boundaries.

The final point is explicitly speculative. Neither speaker supplies documentary evidence of such a recruitment system in the interview.

Bacon’s alleged three-part programme

Frederick’s central thesis is that Bacon created or decisively shaped three systems that became comparable to religions:

1. Shakespeare.
2. Freemasonry.
3. Modern science.

He assigns each a distinct role:

Frederick regards science, or more precisely ‘scientism’, as the ultimate objective. In his view, scientific authority eventually replaces conventional religion while retaining religious characteristics such as:

• sacred authorities;
• canonical works;
• revered founders;
• trust based partly on status;
• institutional control over acceptable belief.

He invokes Bacon’s New Atlantis as a vision of a society dominated by scientific institutions. Frederick recommends reading the work in this light but does not provide extended textual quotations during the interview.

Intelligence, cryptography and surveillance

Frederick presents Elizabethan England as an intensive surveillance state. He discusses:

• Francis Walsingham;
• William Cecil;
• court intelligence networks;
• actors and travelling companies as sources of information;
• Christopher Marlowe’s association with espionage;
• Anthony Bacon’s intelligence activity;
• Francis Bacon’s alleged lifelong involvement in intelligence;
• Bacon’s biliteral cipher.

Frederick explains the cipher as a system using two distinguishable forms of type arranged in groups of five. He suggests that it may have been used in the First Folio. The interview does not demonstrate that such encoded messages are actually present.

He also makes the more speculative claim that Bacon may have known techniques resembling hypnosis, citing scenes from The Tempest and A Midsummer Night’s Dream. This is an interpretative inference rather than established historical evidence.

The Gunpowder Plot

The speakers briefly claim that the Gunpowder Plot was a false-flag operation and that Guy Fawkes was ‘a patsy’. They provide no evidence for this assertion in the interview.

They also discuss public execution as:

• political terror;
• social discipline;
• a form of public sacrifice;
• a ritual for transferring communal guilt or anxiety onto selected victims.

René Girard and the concept of the pharmakos are mentioned in this context, although the transcript renders the term imprecisely.

Darwin, climate science and ‘scientism’

Towards the end, Delingpole connects Frederick’s thesis to his own opposition to mainstream climate science.

He argues that:

• peer review is used as a false guarantee of authority;
• researchers protect the work of ideological or professional allies;
• the public has been conditioned to defer to scientists;
• scientific institutions function as propaganda systems.

Frederick agrees and extends the argument to vaccination and gene therapy. He also criticises Charles Darwin, portraying him as a quasi-religious figure rather than a reliable scientist.